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	<title>Comments on: My Little Mormon Missionaries (Part 3 salvation)</title>
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	<link>http://dougmurphy.org/2007/01/08/my-little-mormon-missionaries-part-3-salvation/</link>
	<description>Crashing into Mission, challenging the Church to more</description>
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		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://dougmurphy.org/2007/01/08/my-little-mormon-missionaries-part-3-salvation/#comment-1056</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Apr 2010 16:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dougmurphy.wordpress.com/2007/01/08/my-little-mormon-missionaries-part-3-salvation/#comment-1056</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Doug,

I realize you wrote this a while ago and have likely long since decided Mormonism is wrong based on your discussion with 19 year-olds (talk about the weak things of the world).

If you would like to reopen your investigation of this I would be happy to talk to you about it. 

Per you comment about points in the bible that clearly show a shift in revelation. There are simple examples.

1. Law of Moses where animal sacrifices are offered, then no such thing accepted after Christ&#039;s atonement.

2. Gospel initially only goes to Jews, then Peter receives a revelation that the Gospel can go to the Gentiles.

3. Abraham, Saul, David and Solomon have many wives, this policies appears to be done away with after Christ. (by the way, I&#039;m not defending polygamy here, just showing there was likely a change).

I suggest the following talk given by a Mormon Apostle not long after you wrote this post: http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-30,00.html

I think that give some direction on the point. 

Lastly, you suggested there have been changes in Mormonism&#039;s core doctrines. This is false and suggests you do not understand Mormonism&#039;s core doctrines. They are simply that we can return to God only through accepting the grace of Christ. Accepting Christ implies obedience to laws and ordinances of His Gospel (otherwise, why would we need baptism). 

Certainly, policies have changed, but such policy changes were not unlike the points I mentioned in the examples above. Do not confuse changes in the organization with changes in the doctrine. 

Thanks!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Doug,</p>
<p>I realize you wrote this a while ago and have likely long since decided Mormonism is wrong based on your discussion with 19 year-olds (talk about the weak things of the world).</p>
<p>If you would like to reopen your investigation of this I would be happy to talk to you about it. </p>
<p>Per you comment about points in the bible that clearly show a shift in revelation. There are simple examples.</p>
<p>1. Law of Moses where animal sacrifices are offered, then no such thing accepted after Christ&#8217;s atonement.</p>
<p>2. Gospel initially only goes to Jews, then Peter receives a revelation that the Gospel can go to the Gentiles.</p>
<p>3. Abraham, Saul, David and Solomon have many wives, this policies appears to be done away with after Christ. (by the way, I&#8217;m not defending polygamy here, just showing there was likely a change).</p>
<p>I suggest the following talk given by a Mormon Apostle not long after you wrote this post: <a href="http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-30,00.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-851-30,00.html</a></p>
<p>I think that give some direction on the point. </p>
<p>Lastly, you suggested there have been changes in Mormonism&#8217;s core doctrines. This is false and suggests you do not understand Mormonism&#8217;s core doctrines. They are simply that we can return to God only through accepting the grace of Christ. Accepting Christ implies obedience to laws and ordinances of His Gospel (otherwise, why would we need baptism). </p>
<p>Certainly, policies have changed, but such policy changes were not unlike the points I mentioned in the examples above. Do not confuse changes in the organization with changes in the doctrine. </p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
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		<title>By: HiveRadical</title>
		<link>http://dougmurphy.org/2007/01/08/my-little-mormon-missionaries-part-3-salvation/#comment-13</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[HiveRadical]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 19:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dougmurphy.wordpress.com/2007/01/08/my-little-mormon-missionaries-part-3-salvation/#comment-13</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By the disconnect and failure to present specifics and their corresponding cases I can&#039;t help but conclude you are attacking strawmen constructs of  a faulty perception as to what we in actuality believe.

You&#039;re overall theme seems to be one of claimed circular thinking on our part. But this conclusion is discovered on faulty reasoning.

To demonstrate this I turn to your seemingly obvious adherence to the Bible as the Rule by which to judge. I would then ask how you arrived at the conclusion that the Bible was what you were to use? Is it because of what the Bible says abbout itself? If so, what differentiates that from your claims of circular reasoning on our part (I will address the falacy of that claim against us in a moment) If not then what do you base that standard on? And so on and so forth? Basically what is your fundamental factor in discerning truth? Is it ultimately subjective or objective? If it&#039;s objective how do you prove such when we are all finite beings with finite minds and finite capacities to sense and discern and fathom?

Ultimately we are all effectively using subjectively based methods of discernment at our core.

Regarding the ciruclar reasoning claim against us it doesn&#039;t hold water. We openly attribute our allegiance in our faith to subjective personal experience. The foundational center is the reception of divine communication that is not fundamentally communicable on an inter-human level nor empirically quantifiable. This is precisely what God praises Peter for--

commentary added by me]

15 He saith unto them, But whom say aye that I am?
  16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
  17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for &lt;i&gt;flesh and blood hath not&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;revealed&lt;/b&gt; it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
  18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon &lt;i&gt;this rock&lt;/i&gt; (revelation from the Father through Peter, the one that would be prophet of the church after the ascension of Christ) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

&lt;b&gt;--Matthew 16:15-18&lt;/b&gt;

BTW I was supprised to hear you&#039;d ordered the book. You&#039;re the first one to actually take a recomendation from me (and tell me about it) of all the time I&#039;ve been commenting on the internet. It&#039;s refreshing as I&#039;ve gone out many times and procured and read recomended books by others, only to have them not respond in kind.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the disconnect and failure to present specifics and their corresponding cases I can&#8217;t help but conclude you are attacking strawmen constructs of  a faulty perception as to what we in actuality believe.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re overall theme seems to be one of claimed circular thinking on our part. But this conclusion is discovered on faulty reasoning.</p>
<p>To demonstrate this I turn to your seemingly obvious adherence to the Bible as the Rule by which to judge. I would then ask how you arrived at the conclusion that the Bible was what you were to use? Is it because of what the Bible says abbout itself? If so, what differentiates that from your claims of circular reasoning on our part (I will address the falacy of that claim against us in a moment) If not then what do you base that standard on? And so on and so forth? Basically what is your fundamental factor in discerning truth? Is it ultimately subjective or objective? If it&#8217;s objective how do you prove such when we are all finite beings with finite minds and finite capacities to sense and discern and fathom?</p>
<p>Ultimately we are all effectively using subjectively based methods of discernment at our core.</p>
<p>Regarding the ciruclar reasoning claim against us it doesn&#8217;t hold water. We openly attribute our allegiance in our faith to subjective personal experience. The foundational center is the reception of divine communication that is not fundamentally communicable on an inter-human level nor empirically quantifiable. This is precisely what God praises Peter for&#8211;</p>
<p>commentary added by me]</p>
<p>15 He saith unto them, But whom say aye that I am?<br />
  16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.<br />
  17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for <i>flesh and blood hath not</i> <b>revealed</b> it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.<br />
  18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon <i>this rock</i> (revelation from the Father through Peter, the one that would be prophet of the church after the ascension of Christ) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.</p>
<p><b>&#8211;Matthew 16:15-18</b></p>
<p>BTW I was supprised to hear you&#8217;d ordered the book. You&#8217;re the first one to actually take a recomendation from me (and tell me about it) of all the time I&#8217;ve been commenting on the internet. It&#8217;s refreshing as I&#8217;ve gone out many times and procured and read recomended books by others, only to have them not respond in kind.</p>
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		<title>By: tikkiro</title>
		<link>http://dougmurphy.org/2007/01/08/my-little-mormon-missionaries-part-3-salvation/#comment-12</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tikkiro]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://dougmurphy.wordpress.com/2007/01/08/my-little-mormon-missionaries-part-3-salvation/#comment-12</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good post on this difficult topic.  Sadly, so many who are snared in false religions are so utterly indoctrinated they can&#039;t allow themselves to consider they&#039;ve been taught a lie by the Liar of all times.  I started reading up a lot about this cult when researching Freemasonry and was surprised to find a lot of links between the two in respect of many of the rituals undertaken, and just like Freemasonry, Mormonism denies the complete atoning sacrifice of Jesus, instead like many others centering on &quot;good works&quot;.  I often wonder what the normal, sane, rational person does when they suddenly succumb to Mormon teaching and allow themselves to become members of said church - how do they react when they first hear or discover that the sect teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers, and that it was a contest as to who was going to come to earth.  And the teaching that they are going to all become little gods and goddesses themselves eventually and reside on one of the many planets their god has provided for the purpose.  Sadly the true god of this age aka Satan, who isn&#039;t actually a god at all but revered as such by many, is still managing to deceive millions with this lie - that they can become like God, and know what He knows etc.   Their god is NOT the Judeo-Christian God Jehovah, nor is their Jesus the Son of God, Immanuel, and Saviour of the world.  Keep pushing out the truth, and I pray many Mormons will rethink their position and views, repent and turn to the One True living God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob - Yahweh!  Blessings, TKR]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post on this difficult topic.  Sadly, so many who are snared in false religions are so utterly indoctrinated they can&#8217;t allow themselves to consider they&#8217;ve been taught a lie by the Liar of all times.  I started reading up a lot about this cult when researching Freemasonry and was surprised to find a lot of links between the two in respect of many of the rituals undertaken, and just like Freemasonry, Mormonism denies the complete atoning sacrifice of Jesus, instead like many others centering on &#8220;good works&#8221;.  I often wonder what the normal, sane, rational person does when they suddenly succumb to Mormon teaching and allow themselves to become members of said church &#8211; how do they react when they first hear or discover that the sect teaches that Jesus and Satan are brothers, and that it was a contest as to who was going to come to earth.  And the teaching that they are going to all become little gods and goddesses themselves eventually and reside on one of the many planets their god has provided for the purpose.  Sadly the true god of this age aka Satan, who isn&#8217;t actually a god at all but revered as such by many, is still managing to deceive millions with this lie &#8211; that they can become like God, and know what He knows etc.   Their god is NOT the Judeo-Christian God Jehovah, nor is their Jesus the Son of God, Immanuel, and Saviour of the world.  Keep pushing out the truth, and I pray many Mormons will rethink their position and views, repent and turn to the One True living God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob &#8211; Yahweh!  Blessings, TKR</p>
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